reptile smuggling Madagascar

tanala

New member
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By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: December 9, 2008

A South African man accused of trying to smuggle hundreds of rare chameleons, snakes, lizards and frogs out of Madagascar inside his jacket and luggage was convicted Tuesday and sentenced to a year in jail. Jo van Niekerk, 29, a zoology student from Pretoria, was arrested in November at Antananarivo Airport with 388 animals, among them several species found only on Madagascar, including a fanged snake and a nocturnal leaf-tailed gecko. Around 100 lizards and frogs were pulled from the lining of his jacket, including a dead lizard, officials said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/world/africa/10briefs-CREATUREDISC_BRF.html?_r=2
 

tanala

New member
he will have a very uncomfotable year in a malagasy prison (no food without money e.g.)
If he is a zoology student and he is interested in these animals, why did he try to smuggle such an amount of animals?
kobegasol, you are right about naming him a thief, but honestly what are all those US dealers that still import for example uroplatus and mantella sp. in quantities? Leaf-toed geckos and most Mantella species need (primary) forest, but those are cut down on and on. Only a ridiculous small area (compared to madagascars whole size, which is about the size of germany and switzerland together) is protected. And those areas are poached as they are the places full of animals that are interesting to the animal market. Just have a look at KS - lots of uroplatus, often ridiculous cheap..
 

tanala

New member
c'mon people nobody interested in this thread? i put in some controversy, tell me your opinion. A photo of a knob-tail or a Rhacodactylus gets dozens of replies sometimes. Is this topic really that boring?
 

LarryLockard

New member
I think that he was an idiot, but the other side of that coin is what is Madagascar doing to slow the rate of deforestization? Probably very little, it is a third world country after all(on the list of things important to its people, natural habitat ranks probably low on the totem pole). My question is, is it really that hard to properly smuggle animals out of these countries? Without putting them in such risk and yourself, or was this amatuer hour. Probably not the most PC answer people were looking for, but I have a hard time not arguing for people smuggling animals when their natural habitat is destroyed daily. Just my two cents. LOL Is that enough controversy for you. hehehe
 

yellowman

New member
Larry I agree with you on this subject. It is hard to talk about people smuggling animals out of countries without talking about the governments of these countries trying to make efforts to save their environment. As you stated before most of these countries don't do much to protect the forest that are these animals homes. As it pertains to the environment I feel that those of us that come from first world countries should do more to help these third world nations protect their natural resources. If I'm not mistaken Madagascar is amongst one of the poorest nations in the world. Countries from Western Europe the U.K., and North America should help the Malagasy government make it profitable for the citizens of that nation to protect their forest. If this doesn't happen the only place you will be able to see many of these animals is in captivity anyways. And on another note, which may be for another topic in another forum for another time, I really don't feel our own country or other western countries have much respect for our wildlife or natural history we should do more here to preserve what we have as well. Thats just my opinion.
 

LarryLockard

New member
I'm all for conservation and the protection of species in their natural habitat at home and abroad. But I also realize that the human race is taking over the planet(more and more of us daily, same amount of planet, or less space daily). So that being said, I think that the ends justify the means. I am willing to condone smuggling of animals if it leads them to being established as CB animals in the pet trade. Take for example Crested geckos, thought to be extinct not more then ten years ago, now you can find designer morphs at your local Petsmart. Who knows in ten years we might have Naultinus species for $500 apiece.
 

siz

New member
Take for example Crested geckos, thought to be extinct not more then ten years ago, now you can find designer morphs at your local Petsmart. Who knows in ten years we might have Naultinus species for $500 apiece.


You bring up a very good point Larry. Although I am on the side of habitat conservation, and (for the most part) against personally buying WC animals, it does and can play a big part in their consevation. This fella just went about it the wrong way..'ameteur hour' for sure.
 

Fossa

New member
hello

Hi everyone, I am jo van niekerk, the one some of you like to refer to as the amatuer...funny. I bought those animals from one of the major exporters allowed to export reptile species to the US and the EU. Typical Malgash they took the money and never got all the paper work together, and the big joke was the people who were the so called police and whom were extremely "saddened" by what happened. NON of you have any idea of what Africa and the Indian Ocean Islands are about, I do know that very few of you know where Madagascar is exactly. Point is they were rated to be amongst the top 10 poorest nations in the World, child trafficking and child prostitution is a daily hobby and how do you expect their govermnet to stop this if THEY are enjoying it so much themselves. Of the 1 year I was supposed to be in jail I did 6 months, good for me. As you all can imagine any jail in such countries can be uncomfortable and even though you can stay for free I would not recommend it. I can go on about how they treat their people but lets leave that for later. I have been a game ranger and all so it was to me a uncomfortable camping experience. Luckily as things could have been much worst. It did however give me the oppertunity to see what Madagascar is all about. Spineless people who would sell their mothers for a buck...POVERTY??? How long can they plead this?

They are clearing the forests at an enormous pace and I went to see first hand. I have spent alot of time there and other countries and it is depressing, how can you stop people from smoking lemurs, tortioses and boas such as Salzinia madagascariensis if there is nothing to eat?? And all the money spent by the US and EU goes into an empty pit. The Zoo at Tsimbazaza in Tana does not have enough food for all the animals yet their officials drive around in 4x4's. My animals were taken there with the promise to the media they would be "released", they all died at the Zoo as the "herp" their has no clue about even taking care of gold fish!! Had I had those animals still I would have bred them generation after generation ensuring the survival of those species, learning more about their biology and keep blood lines pure. When the company packs these animals to go to the US ( I have seen it, I doubt any of you have ) they are stocked up and maybe, just maybe 2 or 3 out of a hundred will make it...ALL OF YOU AS WELL AS I are herps and contribute to smuggling because WE buy animals...and stop singing CB, because every Exotic animal that came to our countries were imported ILLEGALLY otherwise how could we have started "captive bred"? Yes the US and EU had exotics being imported long before the CITES laws, so you already have had some numbers of particular species in your countries by the time these laws were made into effect. But as new species are discovered EVERYONE wants to be the first to breed them. I am doing well in case you all were wondering and am almost done with my studies and will go on to study life and its causes. I am still breeding snakes and lizards, and I am very into venomous snakes since I was a kid growing up in Namibia.

I know Africa does not have enougth time left, and when she is sorted much will have been lost by that time. With humans multilplying ( me as well it is any living organisms perogative and i like it) we are severely threatening sensitive biomes across the planet. The sooner we know how to simmulate an organisms habitat so that it can be prolific the better the chances of survival of highly endangered species. My advice is don't ever trust anyone in Mada and don't ever think they have business ethics. All the animals were in my travel case (non on me, media bullshit) and I had proof of where I bought them. It is only a 3 hour flight to Joburg and those animals would have been safe and happy in no time. Do yourselves a favour and go visit the zoo at Tana, but beware the herp that is or was there, he will try to sell some reptiles as well to make an extra buck. Don't take my word for it go find out for yourselves. Anyone who keeps an exotic animal or any wild indiginous animal should just shut up about the trade and focus on animal husbandry and keeping their animals happy. People like me and others make it possible for you to go to the shop and buy your cute bearded dragon and smile about it, and consiquently ensure the survival of the species. As I write this they are still slashing and burning Mada's forests and the new Government is selling the wood to China whom in turn sells it to the US and the EU for the most beautiful furniture. You see the government has no other way to pay their ministers as everyone withholds aid. Vicious circle isn't it...the system of the world. So ja, its easy to judge when you don't know the facts, I had a mouth full to say to a BBC reporter but the ASS##@ of the jail wouldn't let me speak. I hope though that those who sold me those animals and told me they had the right will get what they deserve, that is if I don't find them first...If I went and collected animals in the wild in Parks yes then I would say definitely I am guilty and had cruel intensions...this was not the case. As someone said what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Enjoy your pets, give them good homes cause they have come a long way...you wonder if they knew better would they have chosen to go or to stay? Take care!
 

Deadly_Kermit

New member
My two cents....

Ideally, I can't condone smuggling in any form.

There are many species that exist in the wild only because restrictions on exportation, and whose biggest threat is human collection. Naultinus for example enjoys very strict government protection. They have very low reproductive rates, and would be extinct in the wild today if not for enforcement of government protection. This issue is not limited to herps. Elephants and Rhinos are still hunted for ivory and horn, despite efforts to protect them.

I say "ideally" because I believe smuggling of animals that are effectively protected is completely unethical. Madagascar however does not fit my notion of an "ideal" situation. I won't pass judgment on jo van niekerk because I wasn't there and I do not know what the situation really was. Madagascar however IS undergoing heavy deforestation and habitat loss that is encouraged by their government. By taking an animal out of an area that will not exist for another year, that animal may be conserved (at least in captivity), but these actions must me taken in a responsible manner. Again, I don't know what van niekerk really intended to do with all of the animals, so I cannot speak for this specific situation, or if it was done in a responsible manner.

Deforestation in Madagascar is inevitable, and will probably continue until the entire island is a giant rice patty, so something MUST be done if the species are to exist in the future. Conservation of wild Madagascan species seems to be completely impossible at this point, so the best solution seems to be establishing a captive population. This SHOULD be done by organized groups that will safely transport animals to adequate facilities, and not by some guy packing them in his luggage (although extreme situations call for extreme measures. Again, I don't know what the situation was). Safely exported animals SHOULD be in the care of professionals for several generations rather than be sold directly on the pet market. How often do you hear of wild caught U. phantasticus dying in captivity? There would be far fewer unnecessary deaths of these animals if it was done correctly.

I believe in responsible collection of wild animals only for the purpose of conservation, and only if it is done ethically.
 

Riverside Reptiles

Administrator (HMFIC)
Fossa, many of your points are well taken. However, I don't really see any of them as an excuse for filling your luggage and jacket with 388 animals and then trying to smuggle them out of the country. However, you've done your time...so I imagine it's not something you're likely to be attempting again any time in the near future.
 

tanala

New member
well, if i had known how many fake informations this artcile contains, i wouldn't have put a link into this forum. Shame on me, for sure. Agreed, most people here probably dont know about the circumstances in M'car. I do a little bit as i have been several times there. You're right, matter of fact that many species held in captivity go back to smuggled animals. Poor countries try to make money of animals that are sought after in the pet trade, matter of fact, too. Yes, i have seen the zoo in Tana, and some other private 'zoos'. Its disgusting. I can remember having seen some of the most threatened species (Scaphiophryne gottlebei, Mantella expectata, M. cowani and so on) in those facilities under very bad husbandry conditions. I have some questions and opinions on what you wrote, you might answer or not (maybe via pm).
-what exporter was it?
-how can you be sure that the animals you bought weren't collected in a Parque Nationale, Reserve Naturelle Integrale, Reserve Speciale or whatsoever?
-you said
"Had I had those animals still I would have bred them generation after generation ensuring the survival of those species, learning more about their biology and keep blood lines pure"
i protest that. This sounds like once in captivity, we're on the safe side. There are species that are difficult to breed in captivity, even for someone with knowledge. And these aren't a minority. I think you know some of those animals i am referring to.
And even though habitat loss causes population declines, i definitely have a problem with phrases like 'if they are not collected for the pet trade, they will face extinction due to deforestation (and fragmentation and desertification etc.)' Thats too simple. Its not like what comes into captivity, stays in captivity.
 

Fossa

New member
well, if i had known how many fake informations this artcile contains, i wouldn't have put a link into this forum. Shame on me, for sure. Agreed, most people here probably dont know about the circumstances in M'car. I do a little bit as i have been several times there. You're right, matter of fact that many species held in captivity go back to smuggled animals. Poor countries try to make money of animals that are sought after in the pet trade, matter of fact, too. Yes, i have seen the zoo in Tana, and some other private 'zoos'. Its disgusting. I can remember having seen some of the most threatened species (Scaphiophryne gottlebei, Mantella expectata, M. cowani and so on) in those facilities under very bad husbandry conditions. I have some questions and opinions on what you wrote, you might answer or not (maybe via pm).
-what exporter was it?
-how can you be sure that the animals you bought weren't collected in a Parque Nationale, Reserve Naturelle Integrale, Reserve Speciale or whatsoever?
-you said
"Had I had those animals still I would have bred them generation after generation ensuring the survival of those species, learning more about their biology and keep blood lines pure"
i protest that. This sounds like once in captivity, we're on the safe side. There are species that are difficult to breed in captivity, even for someone with knowledge. And these aren't a minority. I think you know some of those animals i am referring to.
And even though habitat loss causes population declines, i definitely have a problem with phrases like 'if they are not collected for the pet trade, they will face extinction due to deforestation (and fragmentation and desertification etc.)' Thats too simple. Its not like what comes into captivity, stays in captivity.

Hi JO here, sorry for gettin back to you so late, I dont really get to this site, its facebook and personal mail thats it. I KNOW my animals and have been doing this for a LOOOONG time, grew up in Namibia and I am a 5th Generation South African, grew up in the bush and so on. Yes some species are difficult to breed and I would have been able to. As for whether they have been caught in the wild or from Zoos. They ALL have been collected in the Wild, the Malgash cant even breed Panther Chameleons...never mind Parsons or Leaf Tail Geckos. 388 sound like alot but it was 17 diffrent Genera and 20 different species. And yes in captivity they will have a better chance to survive...how else, when will conservation efforts EVER come into effect in Mada. Some of the MOST famous Herps buy animals illegally just cause there is so much bribary and bullshit involved in trying to get the right permits. Wont mention their names. And the operator is an Australian guy named Euan, but his brother in law ran the business...or still does not sure. And yes wont trust anyone again and get into this situation again. I would LOVE to establish breeding centres ALL over the World with trained specialists who just concentrates on transporting animals safely and securely with no mortalities. If you know of someone that will fund a project of this magnitude let me know. If you are FB get me on Jody Van Niekerk. Would like to talk further!
 
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