Tokay Morphs...

[billewicz]

Ummm, I've tried to avoid pairing normals with any morph if I can breed visually similar animals first. Mostly to avoid 66% hets, etc.

As for the Super Reds, the first pairing has given me 4 hatchlings that look to be exact little copies. I'm very excited about these results. I just acquired a second female that may have come from the same locale as the original 3.1 from last year. I'll pair her soon.

The other males were paired with Calico's and a Caramel. Their offspring all look normal. So a bunch of double hets I'm assuming.

Next season should start to prove out a few other projects, so we'll see.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

Here is a video I took a while back of my caramel tokay male. He is a little larger now, but is still a little testy at times.
Caramel tokay vid.

He's very nice looking. Nice big male. And just an FYI, I've seen your ads of him for sale, and I can tell you for sure that he's not the only caramel tokay in the US. Not trying to burst your bubble...just thought that you should know.

 

[billewicz]

True 'dat' Mr. Ethan.

I've got a couple of Caramel girls myself. One of which will have the pleasure of meeting him next week when he gets here.

I've also noticed a couple of Calico to Calico hatchlings that at 6 months, look very 'caramel' as well. They are not visual for Calico but very light with caramel spots. They're probably too young to say they'll look that way as adults, but we'll see.

Enjoy,

Michael

 

[aquamentus_11]

Hey Ethan, which morph is your juvie #3? Mine looks just like that, but with white spots interspersed with the red on his body. Head spots are all red.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

Hey Ethan, which morph is your juvie #3? Mine looks just like that, but with white spots interspersed with the red on his body. Head spots are all red.

His genetics are calico x calico. But (at least so far) has never turned into a calico. He can't really be called a "morph" until/unless the trait is proven out. But he's not a normal either. Although normals will often get dark and look similar to him, he's a couple of years old and has NEVER lightened up at all. He is basically always black with red spots. No blue what so ever. Normals will change color dependent on a lot of things, temps, stress, excitement, hunger, health, background color, etc. If you have say a dark piece of slate that he hides behind, he's like to spend much more of his time being dark. This, obviously, is a defensive measure to help blend in. Try giving him a white piece of pvc pipe to hide in. I bet his colors will lighten up significantly.

 

[aquamentus_11]

I'm going to try it today. Very exciting haha

 

[billewicz]

If the Calico trait is a simple recessive gene, and that is a BIG IF, then 25% of the offspring will not carry the gene and should look 'normal'. 50% will carry the gene but will not be visual, i.e. Het for Calico. They may not look 'normal' either as we have seen. (This may help in determining, or at least hedging the bet as to which offspring are Het and which are not.) Then the last 25% should be visual for Calico.

And I say 'should' because there is still a chance that there are several strains of Calico that will not genetically match up. The example is evident in Leopard Geckos. There are 5 strains of albino. If you breed a Tremper albino with a Bell albino you will get nothing. Line breeding was the only way they were able to establish visuals. This may be true in Tokay as well.

I have one 1.2 group of related Calico x Calico offspring, (David Tracer stock), that will be ready to breed soon. All the rest of mine are another year away. So, we'll see.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

Actually, IF (and I agree it's a big IF that we're going to find out) the calico trait is simple recessive, and IF it's from two unrelated strains, then all of the calico x calico offspring that I have are double hets (100% het for each strain).

So the results of breeding double het to double het would result in:

=1/16 Homozygous (visual) for both calico A and B (super calico)

=2/16 het. calico A/homo calico B

=1/16 homo calico B

=2/16 het calico B /homo calico A

=4/16 double-hets for calico A and calico B

=2/16 het calico A

=1/16 homo calico A

=2/16 het calico B

=1/16 normal

THEN, if you add in the fact that one of my calico x calico offspring has turned into a green granite, you get a third trait that changes the numbers all over again because you're then breeding
Homo Green granite (Double het for calico A and B) x Double het calico A and B (possible het for green granite)! And that's when the numbers get REALLY complicated! But again, that's assuming that all 3 of the above traits are simple recessive.

However, as we've already seen with tokay morphs, some of them seem to defy the logic of being recessive, dom, co-dom and will need to be sorted out over time to discover exactly what "keys" trigger the "morphs". Also, there's a chance that some of these traits are actually sub-species and/or locality specific traits and not really "morphs" at all. Again, time will tell.

 

[billewicz]

Yes, I believe the double het deal is what we all seem to have. I've actually started breeding my Calico to other morphs just because I'd never know which Calico gene I had in the off chance we got a visual. Also, most of my Calico x Calico breedings do not produce more than 2-3 eggs while my Calico x (something else) tend to be far more productive. Say 6-8 eggs even after I pull the male half way through.

This way I'll have more double hets to work with next year and when they are line bred, I'll know that any visuals were from that one Calico in the mixed pairing.

 

[billewicz]

Speaking of sub-species, take a peak at the Gekko smithi thread and photos I posted in the post by the same name. He even barks like a Tokay.

 

[danniel]

change colour

Before: 9 April 2010
Blue Headed Green??

2 September 2011

Now 17 November 2011
Powder Blue??

 

[billewicz]

Yes, they'll do that, especially around breeding time. My newest males just did the same thing in the last couple of days here too. They went from a drab Olive with a gray head to Powder Blue.

Welcome to Tokay world, enjoy.

 

[danniel]

Yes, they'll do that, especially around breeding time. My newest males just did the same thing in the last couple of days here too. They went from a drab Olive with a gray head to Powder Blue.

Welcome to Tokay world, enjoy.

Thanks :biggrin:

 

[chelseagrin]

how do you guys even hold your tokays? i get anywhere close to mine he barks and tries to bite me!

 

[aquamentus_11]

probably warning barks/snaps. don't ever grab him. keep your hand flat and at his level and EXTREMELY SLOWLY move it under his chin. stop if he starts to get anxious and wait for him to calm down then keep going. the goal is to get him to crawl onto your flat palm. use your other hand to gently nudge if necessary. may take a few tries. it takes patience.

 

[billewicz]

I start by wearing soft mechanics gloves and I'll stroke the Tokay down the back until it settles down. Sometimes they'll run around, bark and bite but they will settle down in a few minutes.

If your Tokay bites and latches on, with it's eyes rolled back, then just slip the glove off and put it back. That one is still not ready for friendship.

Once they let you 'pet' them, you can scoop you hand under them and they'll sit there for a minute. The trick is to be somewhere that if they run away, they are easily reacquired. This way you are not tempted to grab them hard behind the head which will incite the rude defensive bite from hell.

 

[chelseagrin]

also on the listings page on this site why are these tokay morphs so pricey when at the local pet store they are a mere 25 dollars?

 

[aquamentus_11]

wild caught geckos are a lot cheaper (which is what the majority of the ones that you find in stores are). i assume that the morphs cost more because 1) they're more rare 2) they are captive bred and more easily handled and 3) people who buy morphs are often breeders themselves and are making an investment in an animal that they will, in turn, make money off of. this means that the people selling them also probably invested a lot in the parents and animal itself.
if i had to do it again, i'd go with a modestly priced captive-bred: i think it supports the emergence of a self-sufficient pet trade population and works to reduce the pressure on the wild population.

 

[chelseagrin]

good to know! the pet store told me mine was captive bred but sold it to me for 32 dollars? were they probably lying to me? its just a common color variety.

 

[aquamentus_11]

i have no idea if they were lying. let's give them the benefit of the doubt.